Getting bombarded with Bible verses condemning same-sex relationships is no longer regulated to Pride events. Religious arguments decrying homosexuality in politics and on cable news channels have become the norm. But who actually checks out these verses?
Like most of the gay community, lesbian filmmaker Ky Dickens has been besieged with Bible references in order to marginalize the sanctity of same-sex relationships. Spanning 20 states, countless conversations with clergy of all denominations and her local LGBT community, Dickens dissected the seven key Bible passages that are used to condemn homosexuality and created the film, Fish Out of Water.
By combining original animation, LGBT narratives and academic interviews, the film attempts to break down the procreation argument, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the passages of Leviticus, the writings of Paul in Romans, Corinthians, and Timothy and what “natural” and “sexual immorality” really meant in the first century.
What was your intention when you made this movie?
So many people use the Bible as a way to condemn the gay lifestyle but so few people understand what the Bible actually says on the topic. Almost every anti-gay message in society is rooted in the religious texts. We’ve all heard them.
After learning that the seven Bible verses used to condemn homosexuality have been grossly misinterpreted and/or taken out of context, I thought it was important to expose that information in an entertaining way so that LGBTQ people and our allies can engage in an informed debate around this issue and disarm those who try to harm our community with religion.
What prompted you to include animation in the film?
Animation was integral to my early vision. Talking about religion and homosexuality can be boring and dusty. Not only that but it can be extremely polarizing and off-putting. Animation was key to bringing these Bible verses to life, making them accessible and removing the built-in fear factor that some people experience when talking about the Bible. About 50% of the film is animated and this helps keep the topic light and entertaining it also helps folks to remember the academic information that is being handed to them in the film. After watching the Sodom and Gomorrah story unfold as a cartoon, it’s almost impossible to forget what that story is really about. And it’s not about us fabulous queers!
Have you received any backlash from the movie?
There have been a few folks who get angry and walk out of screenings but that is to be expected. I think this film really makes people rethink everything that they’ve ever been taught, which can be very uncomfortable and scary for people. Overall, the film has been embraced by not just the LGBTQ community but also by the the religious community. Outside of film festivals, we’ve been screening the movie in more church basements than in gay community centers. I’ve found there are many Christians who are loving and inclusive and have been looking for opportunities to erase the damage that has been done by the church and [they feel] Fish Out of Water gives them an opportunity to finally stand up and do so.
You mentioned Rev. Phelps in a previous interview and how his on-camera persona differed from to off-camera. In your firsthand opinion, do you believe his rants are just an act to fuel the “public” fire or his true feelings?
For the life of me, I can’t figure out the Phelps family. We spent a day with them in Chicago when they were protesting President Obama’s former church. They were so hostile and venomous when the camera was on but when the camera was off, they felt like normal people. It was a hot day and they were constantly asking us if we wanted a juice box or string cheese. They were telling us about their kids’ track meets and school projects. It was weird to witness that dichotomy. I don’t know what their intention is by being so public and energized around hate and condemnation.
However, I will tell you this. They have indirectly helped the gay community more than they’ve hurt us. Because they stood out there with “Gods Hates Fags” signs and things, America became aware of religious fueled homophobia and the Phelps family became the poster children for the hatred. This catalyst led people to look deeper at these issues and try harder to reach out to the gay community with love and understanding.
Besides Rev. Phelps, did you encounter any negative responses or ministers that simply would not participate?
I recently read that 68% of protestant clergy believe that LGBTQ people should be fully included in all aspects of church life. However, only 7% of these clergy have said so publicly. I wasn’t shocked when I read this statistic because in all honesty, most ministers that I met were excited to talk to me about this topic in order to set the record straight.
However, many of the same ministers might not get up in the pulpit and say so in front of their congregation. We interviewed an all-straight group of clergy and scholars from every denomination. All of them felt that they were in the majority in their thinking on this issue. Right now, the largest problem is that clergy will not believe out loud. They are too concerned with keeping unity and peace in their congregations.
In the film, you state that one of the reasons you attended Vanderbilt University in Tennessee was to meet a woman like that of Mary Stuart Masterson’s character in the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes. So, have you found your “Idgie Threadgoode?”
What a great question. I have found a few along the way. I am currently dating a wonderful woman. She’s an actress and a strong, energetic, loving person. We fell in love while working on Fish out of Water. I asked her to help me produce the film when I saw the work she did on another documentary. She came on board and soon after we became involved.
Are you out to your family?
I came out to my family about 10 years ago. When I came out to my dad, he started weeping. I remember thinking, “Oh, great. This is so textbook. Now he’s going to start asking offensive questions about what made me this way.” I let him cry and stare at me for a few minutes and then I asked him if he was okay.
He said, “I can’t believe that you doubted my love for you. Do you really think there is anything you could tell me that would make me stop loving you?”
Then he proceeded to ask if I had a girlfriend and when I told him that I was dating someone, he asked me to get her on the phone. I called up my girlfriend at the time and he asked her to take me out for drinks and throw me a coming out party. It was so sweet and loving. My mom was a different story. She wasn’t upset for religious reasons. She was just confused and unearthed because I was her only daughter, had long blonde hair, was in a sorority and on the homecoming court. She couldn’t imagine that I, her “only girl,” would be gay.
I think she was fearful about what people would think of her and our family. She wanted me to change and I think she felt pretty sickened by the whole thing. We definitely had a rough few years. However, she’s completely turned around now and she’s always selling t-shirts at my events and asking my gay friends to do water aerobics with her. It is funny how time can change people.
